A Chaucer pronunciation question

[a***@gmail.com]

In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

Thanks,
Alasdair

[ffoulkes]

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters
are Palamon and Arcite. How is the name "Arcite"
properly pronounced?

I like to remember that it derives from Boccaccio's
*Arcita e Palemone* and give it a vaguely modern-day
Eyetie pronunciation: "ah-Chee-ter".

ff

[Don Phillipson]

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

Scansion suggests three syllables (not two) as
Arkitay or something like that.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?
Thanks,
Alasdair

The meter sometimes requires a disyllabic pronunciation (ahr-SEET) and
sometimes a trisyllabic one (ahr-SEE-tuh--in Robinson's edition, at
least, the spelling "Arcita" appears in some [but not all] of these
cases). If I were referring to the two guys in a lecture on KT, I think
I'd go with "ahr-SEET."


RPN

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?
Thanks,
Alasdair

The meter sometimes requires a disyllabic pronunciation (ahr-SEET) and
sometimes a trisyllabic one (ahr-SEE-tuh--in Robinson's edition, at
least, the spelling "Arcita" appears in some [but not all] of these
cases). If I were referring to the two guys in a lecture on KT, I think
I'd go with "ahr-SEET."

Dammit, I just reread my post, and the last sentence should read "If I
were referring to the two guys in a lecture on KT, I think I'd go with
'ahr-SEE-tuh'" (which would be [approximately] the normal pronunciation
of the word [in isolation] in Middle English).


RPN

[Meg Worley]

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
for what that's worth.


Rage away,

meg

[jadel]

Post by Meg Worley

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
for what that's worth.

Why, it's Ms Worley, looking as if she were alive.

"AR-see-tay" is the way I heard it eons ago in a Chaucer class

J. Del Col.

[Paul Ilechko]

Post by jadel

Post by Meg Worley

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
for what that's worth.

Why, it's Ms Worley, looking as if she were alive.
"AR-see-tay" is the way I heard it eons ago in a Chaucer class

And there I was hoping it was "arse 'ite", which describes how long a
Cockney's legs are ...

[Walker]

Post by Paul Ilechko

Post by jadel

Post by Meg Worley

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say
"AR-see-tay,"
for what that's worth.

Why, it's Ms Worley, looking as if she were alive.
"AR-see-tay" is the way I heard it eons ago in a Chaucer class

And there I was hoping it was "arse 'ite", which describes how long a
Cockney's legs are ...

I was wondering how long that would take. :) The pronunciation (and
mischievously repeated variants) often raised a um...titter, when we
studied The Canterbury Tales at school.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by Meg Worley

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
for what that's worth.

I wonder why, when that pronunciation won't work in the poem itself,
where "Arcite" is rhymed with words like "endite" (pronounced
ehn-DEE-tuh), "quite" (pronounced KWEE-tuh), and "lite" (pronounced
LEE-tuh).


RPN

[Walker]

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Meg Worley

Post by a***@gmail.com
In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
for what that's worth.

I wonder why, when that pronunciation won't work in the poem itself,
where "Arcite" is rhymed with words like "endite" (pronounced
ehn-DEE-tuh), "quite" (pronounced KWEE-tuh), and "lite" (pronounced
LEE-tuh).

Although a very regular 'a b a b a c c' pattern is evident, the
off-rhyme between 'fynde' and 'bite' suggests Chaucer wasn't too
concerned with strict end-rhymes throughout. Besides: Arcite & endite,
quite & lite (with the pronunciation you suggest) and find & byte all
echo through assonance, so the general form is still rather satisfying.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by Walker
Although a very regular 'a b a b a c c' pattern is evident,

You're thinking of "Anelida and Arcite"--though that's not completely
irrelevant. The Knight's Tale, which is what we were talking about, is
in rhymed couplets. (And that rhyme scheme should be a b a b *b* c c.)

RPN

[Walker]

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Walker
Although a very regular 'a b a b a c c' pattern is evident,

You're thinking of "Anelida and Arcite"--though that's not completely
irrelevant. The Knight's Tale, which is what we were talking about, is
in rhymed couplets. (And that rhyme scheme should be a b a b *b* c c.)

Ah, sorry. I thought your comment about "Arcite" being rhymed with
"endite" was _Anelida and Arcite_ specific because "endite" doesn't
occur in (ahem, my copy of) _The Knight's Tale_.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by Walker

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Walker
Although a very regular 'a b a b a c c' pattern is evident,

You're thinking of "Anelida and Arcite"--though that's not completely
irrelevant. The Knight's Tale, which is what we were talking about, is
in rhymed couplets. (And that rhyme scheme should be a b a b *b* c c.)

Ah, sorry. I thought your comment about "Arcite" being rhymed with
"endite" was _Anelida and Arcite_ specific because "endite" doesn't
occur in (ahem, my copy of) _The Knight's Tale_.

Well, unless I've miscounted, the rhyme with "endite" occurs four times
in KT in Robinson's second edition of Chaucer's works (lines 1209-10,
1379-80, 1871-72, and 2741-42 of the A fragment). But I think we've
reached the point of diminishing returns in this discussion.

RPN

[Walker]

Post by r***@hotmail.com

Post by Walker

Post by r***@hotmail.com
You're thinking of "Anelida and Arcite"--though that's not completely
irrelevant. The Knight's Tale, which is what we were talking about, is
in rhymed couplets. (And that rhyme scheme should be a b a b *b* c c.)

Ah, sorry. I thought your comment about "Arcite" being rhymed with
"endite" was _Anelida and Arcite_ specific because "endite" doesn't
occur in (ahem, my copy of) _The Knight's Tale_.

Well, unless I've miscounted, the rhyme with "endite" occurs four times
in KT in Robinson's second edition of Chaucer's works (lines 1209-10,
1379-80, 1871-72, and 2741-42 of the A fragment). But I think we've
reached the point of diminishing returns in this discussion.

Well yes, but I'm glad you pointed out my mistakes. I need new glasses,
or something.

Thanks.

[Shaun]

Kind of like the way Byron rhymes 'Juan' with 'new one,' which suggests
an alternate speaking of Juan: instead of 'Don Wan,' as we say it, it
sounds like 'Don Ju-one.'

Takers, anybody?

[Paul Ilechko]

Post by Shaun
Kind of like the way Byron rhymes 'Juan' with 'new one,' which suggests
an alternate speaking of Juan: instead of 'Don Wan,' as we say it, it
sounds like 'Don Ju-one.'

Byron did not write nursery rhymes.

[Walker]

Post by Shaun
Kind of like the way Byron rhymes 'Juan' with 'new one,' which suggests
an alternate speaking of Juan: instead of 'Don Wan,' as we say it, it
sounds like 'Don Ju-one.'
Takers, anybody?

Hmm, I suppose upper-crust English speakers of the old school (like
Byron) could have been so reliant on "one" as a pronoun that other words
naturally had an assonant relationship with it.

"How does _one_ find London Mr Hu-one?"

Speaking of upper-crust English accents, I very much miss the long lost
tradition of adding Y noises near certain vowels -- best demonstrated by
Celia Johnson in _Brief Encounter_.

"I went eybsolutely myad and bought a new hyat."

But I digress. ;-)

[Paul Ilechko]

Post by Walker
Speaking of upper-crust English accents, I very much miss the long lost
tradition of adding Y noises near certain vowels -- best demonstrated by
Celia Johnson in _Brief Encounter_.
"I went eybsolutely myad and bought a new hyat."
But I digress. ;-)

Digression is good ;-)

Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

[ffoulkes]

Post by Paul Ilechko

Post by Walker
Speaking of upper-crust English accents, I very much miss the long
lost tradition of adding Y noises near certain vowels -- best
demonstrated by Celia Johnson in _Brief Encounter_.
"I went eybsolutely myad and bought a new hyat."
But I digress. ;-)

Digression is good ;-)
Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

The same persons would probably also drop the "g" in "ing" so:

"Currently readin' The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interestin' to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncin' an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on."

This stuff is neither "U" nor "RP", but just a fashionable lazy way of
talkin'. Carmichael's "Wimsey" is an exemplar, but Sayers was Not Amused.

ffoulkes

[jadel]

ffoulkes wrote:


And down there in Baja Kentucky "golf" is pronounced "Gawf" or "NASCAR"

J. Del Col.

[Paul Ilechko]

Post by ffoulkes
"Currently readin' The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interestin' to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncin' an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on."
This stuff is neither "U" nor "RP", but just a fashionable lazy way of
talkin'. Carmichael's "Wimsey" is an exemplar, but Sayers was Not Amused.

Would you like your camel now ?

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by ffoulkes

Post by Paul Ilechko

Post by Walker
Speaking of upper-crust English accents, I very much miss the long
lost tradition of adding Y noises near certain vowels -- best
demonstrated by Celia Johnson in _Brief Encounter_.
"I went eybsolutely myad and bought a new hyat."
But I digress. ;-)

Digression is good ;-)
Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to
read about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never
pronouncing an "l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is
Gof, an Elm tree is an Em and so on.

"Currently readin' The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interestin' to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncin' an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on."
This stuff is neither "U" nor "RP", but just a fashionable lazy way of
talkin'. Carmichael's "Wimsey" is an exemplar, but Sayers was Not Amused.

It would have been difficult, seeing that she had been dead for 15
years, but, in fact, Sayers' original Wimsey does the same thing.

[Walker]

Post by Paul Ilechko

Post by Walker
Speaking of upper-crust English accents, I very much miss the long
lost tradition of adding Y noises near certain vowels -- best
demonstrated by Celia Johnson in _Brief Encounter_.
"I went eybsolutely myad and bought a new hyat."
But I digress. ;-)

Digression is good ;-)
Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

That's the accent used by Tim Nice But Dim
(http://www.geocities.com/harryenf/tim.html) -- a Harry Enfield
character. It sounds rather half-soaked when you hear it, but I suppose
that's what happens when families are bred like pedigree dogs. ;)

[Paul Ilechko]

Post by Walker
That's the accent used by Tim Nice But Dim
(http://www.geocities.com/harryenf/tim.html) -- a Harry Enfield
character. It sounds rather half-soaked when you hear it, but I suppose
that's what happens when families are bred like pedigree dogs. ;)

Yes, one of Kate Atkinson's characters in the excellent "Case Histories"
has an amusing take on British Upper Class inbreeding. Actually, the
dogs are generally smarter, and have better coats.

[Alan Hope]

Post by Paul Ilechko
Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

Presumably why Ralphie Vaughan-Williams is known to his friends as
Rafe.

[Paul Ilechko]

Post by Alan Hope

Post by Paul Ilechko
Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

Presumably why Ralphie Vaughan-Williams is known to his friends as
Rafe.

As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.

[Alan Hope]

Post by Paul Ilechko

Post by Alan Hope

Post by Paul Ilechko
Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

Presumably why Ralphie Vaughan-Williams is known to his friends as
Rafe.

As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.

I suspect it's possibly not his fault, entirely. He was probably being
called Rafe before he got any say in the matter.

There's a polar explorer guy called Fiennes with a forename of
Ranulph. Wonder if they're related? And is he called Ranafe?

[David Matthews]

Post by Alan Hope

Post by Paul Ilechko

Post by Alan Hope
Presumably why Ralphie Vaughan-Williams is known to his friends as
Rafe.

As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.

I suspect it's possibly not his fault, entirely. He was probably being
called Rafe before he got any say in the matter.
There's a polar explorer guy called Fiennes with a forename of
Ranulph. Wonder if they're related? And is he called Ranafe?
--
AH

That's Sir Ranulph Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes if you don't mind. Arctic
explorer, ex-SAS man and teller of tall stories. No idea whether he's
related to the other Fiennes.

Dave in Toronto

[Tim Cole]

I have an orthodox Jewish brother-in-law whose name, Ralph, is pronounced
"Rafe" with a long 'a'.
I was beginning to assume a Hebrew connection to the inflection.

Post by Alan Hope

Post by Paul Ilechko

Post by Alan Hope

Post by Paul Ilechko
Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

Presumably why Ralphie Vaughan-Williams is known to his friends as
Rafe.

As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.

I suspect it's possibly not his fault, entirely. He was probably being
called Rafe before he got any say in the matter.
There's a polar explorer guy called Fiennes with a forename of
Ranulph. Wonder if they're related? And is he called Ranafe?
--
AH

[David Matthews]

Post by Alan Hope

Post by Paul Ilechko
As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.

I suspect it's possibly not his fault, entirely. He was probably being
called Rafe before he got any say in the matter.
There's a polar explorer guy called Fiennes with a forename of
Ranulph. Wonder if they're related? And is he called Ranafe?
--
AH

Ranulph Fiennes - Artic explorer, ex SAS member and teller of tall stories
is not related to the actor- His full name and title is Sir Ranulph
Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes (which sounds like something out of
P.G.Wodehouse)

Dave in Toronto

[shady lady]

They are related, they are 2nd cousins. Ralph's full name is Ralph
Nathaniel Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes. He, and most of his family, just
use the Fiennes bit of the name. To much of a mouthful and it wouldn't
fit on the credits!!

[a***@gmail.com]

Thanks folks! I was OK with the final "e": sometimes heavily
pronounced (after all, the spelling "Arcita" is used), and sometimes
swallowed, depending on the scansion of the line. But I was
particularly interested in the "c": whether it should be French
(AR-see-tay, AR-see-tuh), or Italian, from Boccaccio (AR-chee-tay).

But it seems that the scholarly opinion of this group is to go for the
French version.

Thanks again.

-Alasdair